Alternatives with refusal of blood derivatives

This is a discussion on Alternatives with refusal of blood derivatives within the Shop Talk forum; Originally Posted by Deborah Tolich Jan, You present a good point. I agree that as ...


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Old 03-10-2004, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah Tolich
Jan,

You present a good point. I agree that as patient advocates we need to think outside of the box and discuss with physicians all possible scenarios. In this particular case the risks outweigh the benefits. This patient is stable at this time and with the co-morbidity of significant liver disease it would be placing the patient at unnecessary risk.

In an emergent situation the physicians I work with do not exclude anyone from surgery due to anemia. As a matter of fact last summer we received a JW acute MI that was immediately cathed/angioplastied and given Plavix and went into cardiogenic shock with a poor prognosis for survival. One of our cardiothoracic surgeon's took him to surgery as a last resort attempt to prolong life. I don't know of too many CT surgeons willing to take someone to surgery within 24 hours of receiving Plavix. This particular patient did not survive. However, everyone involved in the care of this patient went home at the end of day knowing that everything possible was done.

I appreciate this website for the exchange of ideas and experiences.

Debbie Tolich, RN
Director
Regional Center for
Blood Conservation
St. Vincent Charity Hospital
Cleveland, OH
216-363-3353
Our physicians are the experts at what they do, but new information often changes their approach. My purpose wasn't to impugn the surgeons in this case, however I know from many years experience that our job as bloodless pros is to be brave and ask the tough questions. We must resist the current standard of care rut. We must admit that some surgeons "think bloodless" better than others. I still experience the old "if they won't take blood there is nothing we can do" syndrome. Don't you? When we challenge that we are not questioning the physician's judgment we are simply doing our job, which includes bringing a new perspective to difficult cases.

Have you heard of the "luck of the draw" principle? In one setting or practice the premise "we need to raise her crit before we can operate" might be focal, however in another setting or practice the premise might be "she won't get better laying in bed so lets offer her the option of surgery. After all, no surgery means a long, lingering demise as a medical patient".
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Old 03-10-2004, 11:21 AM
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Non-Blood Alternative Treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo Valenti
This certainly has been an interesting ongoing discusssion. I would like to make a couple of comments.

First, patients with compromised liver function will likely have difficulty with postop hemostasis. I don't recall anyone bringing up that aspect. However, it is probably the single most critical risk factor because of the inability to quantify. You just can't predict who bleeds postop and who doesn't. Even with a bumped up crit, if they bleed and don't stop, they die. Add all of these factors add up: double valve, cirrhosis, crit is low and can't use EPO, refuses fractions....I think medical management is the reasonable solution. (Keep in mind that ongoing anticoagulation in a Jehovah's Witness carries it's own risk over the long haul, too)

Second, from a financial perspective, resources are limited and exposing a patient to a costly procedure and hospitalization with little prospects for a good outcome affects the entire system.

Just a thought.....
Jo

Our physicians are the experts at what they do, but new information often changes their approach. My purpose wasn't to impugn the surgeons in this case, however I know from many years experience that our job as bloodless pros is to be brave and ask the tough questions. We must resist the current standard of care rut. We must admit that some surgeons "think bloodless" better than others. I still experience the old "if they won't take blood there is nothing we can do" syndrome. Don't you? When we challenge that we are not questioning the physician's judgment we are simply doing our job, which includes bringing a new perspective to difficult cases.

Have you experienced the "luck of the draw" principle? If Aunt Mabel goes to physician or hospital A she receives no treatment because her crit is two grams below normal and she is called 'anemic' (BTW. when will we change that pesky scale?). If she goes to physician or hospital B she receives treatment. It's a matter of personal judgment. The A group says "we usually use blood in these cases. Because we can't, we won't take the risk. After all she is anemic". The B group says "if she becomes a medical patient she faces a long slow demise, we should offer to share the risk with her even though she won't take blood".
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Old 03-14-2004, 05:12 AM
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14 March 2004

Being an anesthesiologist, I would like to find out how bad the liver cirrhosis is. As it was mentioned earlier, no update on liver enzymes is available. I would ask re prothrombin time and activated plasma thromboplastin time as these are monitors of the coagulation profile. How low are the patient's serum proteins, particularly albumin? The liver problem especially if coagulation profile is not optimum will pose a big problem.

Medical management would be an option. I just talked to Brother Dan Kuizon, a cardiologist at the Philippine Heart Center for Asia and asked him if it would be alright to bring his thoughts/advice on this case to the forum.He asked what valves are to be replaced. You may email him at dankui@hotmail.com

Sister Angie Gapay

Angelina A. Gapay, MD
Department of Anesthesia
Divine Word Hospital
Tacloban City
Philippines



Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah Tolich
Any suggestions for the following case?

50+ y/o JW with cirrhosis. Needs double valve replacement. Current Hgb. 11.0. Has made an informed decision not to accept blood derived products including albumin. Therefore will not accept erythropoetin products available in USA. IV iron contraindicated d/t decreased liver function. How can we increase Hgb. for surgery?

Thanks for your consideration.


Debbie Tolich, Director
Regional Center Blood Conservation
St. Vincent Charity Hospital
216-363-3353
800-782-4673
email: deborah.tolich@csauh.com
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:35 PM
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ap: Could you fax a copy of darbopoeitin info to me as well? 719-487-0184. Jan Grossberg
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